In this episode of Career Spotlight, host Michael Bernzweig interviews Bill Kasko, the president and CEO of Frontline Source Group. They discuss the evolution of the staffing industry, the challenges faced during the startup phase, and the impact of technology on recruitment. Bill shares insights on building a company philosophy centered around people and service, the importance of adaptability in careers, and the recognition Frontline has received over the years. The conversation also covers the shift to remote interviews, the significance of job shadowing, and the role of skills-based testing in hiring. Bill emphasizes the need for effective communication and the future of technology in the recruiting space.
In this episode of Career Spotlight, host Michael Bernzweig interviews Bill Kasko, the president and CEO of Frontline Source Group. They discuss the evolution of the staffing industry, the challenges faced during the startup phase, and the impact of technology on recruitment. Bill shares insights on building a company philosophy centered around people and service, the importance of adaptability in careers, and the recognition Frontline has received over the years. The conversation also covers the shift to remote interviews, the significance of job shadowing, and the role of skills-based testing in hiring. Bill emphasizes the need for effective communication and the future of technology in the recruiting space.
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Michael Bernzweig (00:01.784)
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I'd like to welcome everyone to this week's edition of the Career Spotlight. My name is Michael Bernzweig, your host and founder of Software Oasis. Today, we actually have a very special guest joining us live. Bill Kasko is the president and CEO of Frontline Source Group. And with that, Bill, I'd like to welcome you to the podcast.
Bill Kasko (00:29.762)
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate it. Excited to be here. Quite an honor. Thank you.
Michael Bernzweig (00:33.59)
Yeah, no, very exciting to have you on this week's edition. And as you know, we always touch on some tech topics, but I was hoping for any of our listeners that may not be familiar with either yourself or Frontline Source Group, could you give a little bit of your background and a little bit about what's going on there at Frontline so that our audience has a little bit of perspective?
Bill Kasko (01:01.902)
No, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it. So we are a professional office, staffing agency, and executive search firm. We've been around for 21 years, headquartered in Dallas, Texas. Our footprint is across the entire nation and specializing in really that higher level, high end professional individual, both accounting, finance, or IT, HR, legal. We have a
different niches. have a niche group that actually specializes in grocery, which is unusual. But no, we're 21 years old. I'll tell you, think every day, I think we've seen it all. And it just seems to always be changing. So it's quite an interesting industry to be in and a career path, especially in this industry right now with as much going
Michael Bernzweig (01:49.504)
Absolutely. And in the early days, obviously, many years later, you know, the firm is very well established. But can you talk a little bit about that startup journey and getting the business off the ground and what some of the original challenges were?
Bill Kasko (02:06.413)
Yeah.
You know, it's funny, looking back, I'm in the Dallas area and we had a recycling drive this weekend where it was bring your old equipment in. And as I was standing, not standing, sitting in the car in these massive lines with a, and we had a bunch of old laptops to get rid of. We looked at the pile of the technology that was there and I started laughing because people were actually dropping off fax machines. And I thought, geez, you know, it was only 20 years ago.
And I thought we were on the cutting edge of buying that, that brother print kind of laser focused fax machine. And that's the way that the resumes would come in. And, know, I think about even before that time, when I first got into the business, was, you know, through the mail and people would print everything out and have the nice paper and bring it in. And boy, it was just a whole different process. But when we started the company, it was the fax machine.
Michael Bernzweig (02:46.799)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (03:07.146)
And really, the web information was out there, but it wasn't the same. It was still about sending in your resume. And you still had the people back then that would send a 20-page resume. And there was nothing that made you more upset to come in on a Monday morning. And the paper was all over the place because the machine had been running the entire weekend collecting resumes. But we were just really getting into that kind of age where
Michael Bernzweig (03:25.594)
You
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (03:35.25)
information through data portals and applicant tracking systems were starting to really evolve. the players in the field were just getting comfortable with asking for that information to be sent over the internet, to be able to come into the systems, be catalogued correctly in a database that was actually searchable. So we went through a good 10 years in the beginning.
of technology changes. mean, technology even today changes in this field, which is crazy. I used to say it was every 18 months. Now it feels like it's every 18 days. But we had a couple of fax machines that would run nonstop. then it kind of transitioned into more of an email. And so they were sending them as attachments, which then meant we had to have another type of software that would take the...
resume and an award document and translate that into our applicant tracking system, which never really worked very well. And then it put the resume in there, but it was never really searchable. And so you went through a whole time when you heard about people saying, I went to the black hole and no one could ever find me because it just wasn't, it wasn't built correctly. And so 20 years ago, it was about the same time we started through that.
Michael Bernzweig (04:52.89)
Great.
Bill Kasko (04:57.016)
that beginnings actually had been going on for a few years, I guess, the .NET era. And so we were evolving and changing the way that we were not only gathering information and data, but the way that it was coming into our systems. So the struggle was that we felt like every time we turned around, we were writing another check, not only to pay for some new software, but also we had to go and learn new software. And it's interesting because our industry
you would think would be on the cutting edge and ahead of everyone, but it's not. It's almost as if we have to have the worst encryption and the lowest kind of mindset because in order to make it adaptable to everyone in a broad range, you can't over tool with technology. so there's two different sides of the business. It's that the functional piece that our technology grows on that we learned from that
as a company that we operate around. And then there's the technology piece that we have to ensure that our end user or end customer is capable of using in their environment. And so that was another entire ordeal was making sure, you how do they match up? How is it easier? Is it harder? And so I'll tell you, that's a really great question thinking back now about this because
Michael Bernzweig (06:23.47)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (06:24.428)
Over the last 20 years, it's really been a challenge to not only get up to speed with the candidate, the individual looking to be employed, but as well as the employer looking to hire in their systems. And then you throw the AI piece of it in now. And it's just, it is quite a daunting task.
Michael Bernzweig (06:46.712)
Yeah, and trying to make it all seamless. we'll come back to that in a moment. going back to the early years, did you have any kind of background in recruiting or how did you get into the industry? What excited you about starting this kind of business?
Bill Kasko (06:48.814)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (07:06.358)
Yeah, was right after, right after 9-11, I was in a great position with Verizon online and the security group doing, with their technology and the security group for the company. And so we were really utilizing that cutting edge of the technology. And so it was wonderful because I was a tech guy, but that's really not what I wanted to do. And I had a neighbor.
who was working for a Fortune 500 staffing company and they had a need for an IT salesperson. Well, I wasn't a sales guy, never been a sales guy, but he came and came to me and said, look, we need someone who knows IT and can do IT sales, who could talk the talk and go and sell. And I said, well, I don't know how to sell. And goes, look, you know this technology, you can sell it.
And so I went and visited with them and I semi understood what they did. And it was a company called Robert Half International, very large, know, Fortune 500 company. so went and visited with them multiple times and I was excited. I mean, it was probably the worst time in the history after 9-11 and a recession, people being laid off to go, I'm going to go to work for a staffing agency. My wife, I'm pretty sure thought I was crazy.
Michael Bernzweig (08:11.491)
Sure.
Michael Bernzweig (08:27.193)
Right?
Bill Kasko (08:29.71)
And at the time she actually worked at American Airlines. So, you know, she thought I was crazy because it was like, we weren't sure what was going to happen in our world. And we had two young kids. No, it was horrible. And so I took the job. don't even know that I asked how much I was going to make. I mean, I just wanted something where I could talk about the technology and get into it. And so I took the position and, know, it was thrilling. It was scary.
Michael Bernzweig (08:36.952)
Right. Not a lot of stability in either.
Bill Kasko (08:58.862)
And I tell people all the time, I was there for two years. I won multiple awards the first year. was like trial by error, by death, by firing squad, because you just, you got thrown into it. And I made it for two years, which we joked was like 14 dog years because you just, it was tough. I mean, it was tough, the hours, the work environment.
Michael Bernzweig (09:23.086)
I've heard from multiple friends, a year at Robert Half is like a decade in any other industry.
Bill Kasko (09:31.094)
And it aged me. used to have a lot of hair and it was just, was, it was, it was great. I mean, I got to be honest. I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for them. And so many times you learn what to do or what not to do. And I really took away that ideology about what, what I was forming in my head. And I went to it. I had to go to another company and drive like a hundred miles a day, 50 miles a day because of my agreements.
Michael Bernzweig (09:42.072)
Yeah, no.
Bill Kasko (09:59.896)
I was a top producer and you know, but I gave him my word. I wasn't going to do that. And so I actually went to work for another company, for a guy who had worked for me while I was at Robert Half and was able to do basically the same thing again and had lunch one day with a guy that I'd worked with. And he said, why don't you just do this on your own? And here's the way you can do this. And it was, he said, it was like, you know, the deer in the headlights. I went home and I talked to my wife and said, I got this idea.
Michael Bernzweig (10:04.718)
Right.
Bill Kasko (10:29.934)
And I said, we're just going to do it out of the house. And I just wanted to do SAP ERP systems, high level consulting work is what I wanted to do. And so when I started, that's what I was going to do. And it was day number two that it never ended up being that. In fact,
Michael Bernzweig (10:39.214)
Right. Yeah.
Michael Bernzweig (10:46.67)
Well, you didn't realize that you started off at the enterprise or global enterprise level, right? So you're really the top of the.
Bill Kasko (10:51.572)
never even happened. And 21 years later, still, we don't do that. mean, it started off with the first position was like an accounting controller or something. It wasn't even in IT. I I focused that's what I was going to do. And instead, the client came to me and said, hey, we have a need for a controller. And I went, OK, sure.
I you know, I was hungry and, you know, 20 years ago we had, we were in, we were all over the job boards because that's what we did. We had a pool of people. We had hot jobs. had monster. We had career builder. We had like different types of platforms that people could post jobs for free. But I had built out our website. I actually built our first website for the company.
Michael Bernzweig (11:36.89)
Are you?
Bill Kasko (11:49.218)
was built using front page. And I built it, I coded it. We had an online chat 21 years ago because I was HR recruiter sales accounting. I was doing it all, right? And so I had to figure out how do I multifunction? How do I do this? And they said, this is what we need. And I did it. And it was like a $25,000 replacement. And that really kickstarted the business.
Michael Bernzweig (11:58.328)
You're ahead of the curve.
Bill Kasko (12:16.866)
but kickstarted it in a way that today I just, never would have imagined.
Michael Bernzweig (12:20.89)
And, know, it's so interesting in entrepreneurial journeys and obviously career spotlight. lot of, a lot of individuals are tuning into this podcast, you know, trying to figure out what the next steps are in their career, you know, where they may be at, at this point, maybe not where they expect it to be. Um, and you know, is it a career? Is it entrepreneurship? What is it? But I think a lot of times as, as you starting down that path and
and starting an organization like you have, you may have an idea as to what you think the market wants, but the market will let you know what it wants once you put your idea alive. And it may be very different than your original idea. And at the end of the day, know, taking that journey, being flexible, adapting and iterating along the way is...
the difference between becoming successful and failure in entrepreneurship, I think.
Bill Kasko (13:22.766)
Well, I think that was one of the things that I recognized being with such a large organization. That's that positive takeaway. For me, it was they were so large, they weren't small, if that makes sense. And so I didn't understand why did you have to have 300 locations? I mean, it just, that's too many. don't understand why you have to have that. Looking back, I now understand. But when I started the company, the idea was,
Michael Bernzweig (13:25.38)
Okay.
Bill Kasko (13:50.242)
build it small and listen to what the need is and place people one at a time. And so what I found was that they wanted ease. wanted the client, the hiring manager, they wanted to make the process easy. So I built the company around a philosophy that we actually have trademarked called people process and service, that we would build these three pillars around a process that we would have ingrained.
but we had to start with what was the most important part of every company, and that's really your people. and for the industry, when we're selling people, which that's already, I think, weird that, you know, I sell people, I mean, those were the most important thing to us was that I had to start with the best people possible. Then I had to put them together with other people that were the client. And I'm in between the two kind of brokering everything.
But in order to make it happen, I had to really build out that process. then it was building out the process as we're growing. And then as you're doing that, you're building out your process, but you're also having this service because we're giving a service back to these companies and to these individuals. And that individual that's a candidate for me today, tomorrow when they're hired becomes a client.
Making sure that that service level and that process and that experience is an excellent one for them is so important because they're not just a candidate. They're not just a body. And I felt like so many times that's how they were treated. Now, the hard part with doing that is when you start scaling it. And that's when the technology definitely comes into play, utilizing how to do that best. And again, yeah, you're right.
I tell people all the time, even on their next journey of a career, take a look at what you've done in the past. Figure out how you can match it up with something else you're happy with. I interviewed a person the other day who, you they've been in the same role for 19 or 20 years now. And, you know, we used to look at that and say, hey, that's great. You know, you want people with tenure that have tenure like that long of time, but it's actually not great.
Bill Kasko (16:11.98)
because they haven't been able to learn about different industry, learn about different companies, learn about people, there's companies in that space, or even necessarily other technologies. They've been utilizing kind of one mindset, one way to do it. And it makes it very difficult, especially in this time we're in today, when things are changing so much more rapid than they ever have before. know, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, they only put out this report every two years, and it won't come out again until next year.
Right now, you're talking about 1.8 to 2.2 years is the average tenure for an individual working. I mean, that's just, if you're not kind of growing and changing as you're doing things and you stay in the same thing for even 10 years, you better have a plan because you're going to be left behind, which makes it difficult. It doesn't just make it difficult to find the new position or make a change. It also makes it difficult when you find out that
Michael Bernzweig (16:50.627)
Well.
Bill Kasko (17:09.826)
That process to get hired, it's not the same as it was 20 years ago.
Michael Bernzweig (17:14.938)
Interesting and I know another successful entrepreneur who has a lot of the same vision and values, Marcus Lamona. So obviously over at Camping World and a whole range of other organizations that he's acquired over the years, you know, has a lot of the same ideologies and, you know, ideas about...
Bill Kasko (17:27.502)
It does.
Michael Bernzweig (17:40.494)
business and success. that's really interesting to hear. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but did I see that the frontline was named one of the fastest growing companies on the Forbes list?
Bill Kasko (17:59.342)
Yeah, we've been on the Forbes list over the years, the Inc 500, 5,000. We've won, I mean, they're great accolades. It's interesting. mean, the first couple of years that we won the best place to work in Dallas, was just such an honor for all of us. And then 2008, we went through the great recession, the credit crisis, and it was really...
Michael Bernzweig (18:09.508)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (18:27.074)
The first time after 9-11 that we saw this huge, massive layoff, almost a depression in the country, and we didn't even apply for it. It was funny. The Dallas Business Journal came to us and they said, why aren't you guys going to do this again? And we felt that as a company who puts people to work, we just didn't feel like it was really right to celebrate us. And we got a lot of grief for it.
Michael Bernzweig (18:48.39)
Yeah. Yeah, you didn't wanna... Yeah.
Bill Kasko (18:55.758)
And I looked back and it was, we kind of stepped away from that. And I said, it's, it really isn't about us, what we do. there are things that we've done over the years. And in fact, the staffing industry, want the number one staffing industry or staffing company to work for by the staffing industry analyst two years in a row, which was like the first time somebody had done that before. And, and we just said, you know, we know we're, we're nowhere good at what we do. we don't need to.
Michael Bernzweig (19:22.97)
Yeah, and I think a lot of that is you need to do what you know you need to do and the accolades will follow. And I think that that's a true testament to a lot of that. it sounds like, you know, a big portion of the success has been technology, which is really, really exciting, just getting all of the right structure in place to make it easy for your customers to
Bill Kasko (19:27.48)
Yeah.
Michael Bernzweig (19:46.318)
do what they need to do and, you know, for clients and individuals on both ends of it, obviously, individuals need to find their next career and clients need to find the best possible individuals for their organization to move things forward.
Bill Kasko (19:57.774)
All right.
Bill Kasko (20:05.838)
Yeah, they do. You know, it's interesting. In 2015, we switched over to a voiceover IP. 2014, maybe 12, we started playing with video interviews. You know, before that time, if you were going to do an interview or interview with an agency, executive search or staffing agency on a professional basis, you were going to have to come into an office. You would come into an office, you would sit down, you would do a full interview.
Michael Bernzweig (20:14.074)
Sure.
Michael Bernzweig (20:18.265)
Thank
Michael Bernzweig (20:28.964)
Okay.
Michael Bernzweig (20:32.483)
Great.
Bill Kasko (20:36.078)
And we started really looking at that, noticing the amount of time it was taking. So if you were going to do a 30 minute interview with someone, a recruiter would pretty much 30 minutes before the interview start shutting down because a person most of the time would show up early. And so you would shut down 30 minutes before they would show up 10, 15 minutes before, but you would have to kind of prepare. You would do the interview. And by the time it was done, if it went well, it was probably even 30, 45 minutes.
Michael Bernzweig (20:53.421)
Right.
Bill Kasko (21:05.902)
So then he had another half hour on the other side that was kind of lost. And what we found was that the amount of time lost in between was just not efficient whatsoever. So we started playing with doing video interviews. About the same time, it was the first time that we really had gas prices spike to $4 to $5 a gallon. And what we found is that nobody wanted to drive to our offices. Nobody wanted to come in to see us. And so we were already a step ahead because we were
Michael Bernzweig (21:16.548)
Thank
Michael Bernzweig (21:25.914)
Right.
Bill Kasko (21:34.924)
testing and utilizing remote people, working remote, voiceover IP, video interviews. So when COVID hit, also let me back up before that, because of our operations in South Texas, Houston area in particular, we were used to having to load up all of the employees and their families and get them out of the Houston for hurricanes before they would come in. we were used to, how do we do that? How do we make everybody mobile? And so when COVID hit,
We didn't even miss a beat. In fact, when we said we're going home, we had what we called bug out boxes. Everybody loaded up their stuff. We took it. Everybody went home. They set up the next day. We didn't miss a beat. We had to change our process, but we were never closed.
Michael Bernzweig (22:07.16)
I love you.
Michael Bernzweig (22:23.866)
That's also interesting, I would think with recruiting, if you're only speaking to people that are within proximity to where you are, you've really limited the candidate pool. And when you can open it up to a larger region, you can really help your clients find the best candidates no matter where they are. I think that's a great
Bill Kasko (22:45.07)
Well, I think Michael, it's important to remember that over the last 20 years, people have become more open to being transient back and forth to move to one area of the country to the other. We're pretty lucky and blessed to be in Texas where people, there's a lot of opportunity. And so people have always been coming here. So even during the great recession, even during COVID, well, mean, COVID, it was like we were still open. I mean, we didn't really shut down.
Michael Bernzweig (22:56.002)
Right.
Bill Kasko (23:14.99)
But you had a slowdown. And even during your slowdowns, as I've said to people multiple times, you know, look, 15 % unemployment, I still got 85 % working. So there's still plenty of opportunity. You have to find the right opportunity. You have to find the right people. But you're right. I didn't believe in the philosophy that just because I'm in Dallas, Texas, I can't recruit for that person who's in Michigan.
which we do all day long. And if you have a process of the way that you recruit and what you follow with a playbook and a process, then you're gonna go through your interview the same exact way. And my having an interview with a person on video, I don't feel is any different. Look, if they show up in a shirt with dirt all over it and no collar, I'm gonna question it.
Like you should show up to this as it's a real interview. Is that how you're going to show up when you're going to interview with our client? Now, again, if I go back 20 years, the client and the employer, they were not open to doing a video interview. They weren't open to that. They weren't open to people relocating. It was a whole different mindset. And you go through this transition that we've done all the way really till, if you look about 18 months ago, when we went through the great resignation.
And the ghosting started. Well, I will tell you ghosting of a person looking for work started with recruiters before it ever went to the employer. They were ghosting us nonstop because they would get four to five to six interviews and they weren't worried about it. And they knew, hey, I'm working. All I got to do is get an offer and I'm going to go in and I'm going to tell my employer that I'm leaving. They're going to counter and I'm going to take it even though we would say, don't do it.
I'm telling you, don't do this. It's not a good thing. If you really want to leave, this is what you need to do. We would coach, mentor them. These are the reasons you want to leave. They would do it. It was 60, 70 % of the offers we got in 2023, especially that summer, second, third quarter, they would ghost or they would take the counter offer. So then all of a sudden, now you've got the employer,
Bill Kasko (25:43.618)
The people aren't showing up either. Yeah. And they're like, hey, you're right. And we're like, yeah, we have to work together on this and make sure they're really serious about making a change. so part of that really came about because of technology. Part of it came about because the candidate was now having more conversations over email, through platforms, and not going in to do actual physical interviews with different recruiters.
Michael Bernzweig (25:45.073)
in the driver's seat.
Bill Kasko (26:12.47)
or different employers for that
Michael Bernzweig (26:14.522)
So for any of the executives listening to this podcast, obviously you sit in a very unique space. If you were to give like a bulleted list of the principles that you've learned over the years that you feel really helped reduce the number of bad hires an organization can make, what are those key details that make the difference?
Bill Kasko (26:43.502)
You know, it's funny because they haven't changed and that this is the crazy part. And it's so simple that it's the kiss thing. Just keep it simple and stupid because it doesn't change. So, you know, my number one thing is if they're late. If someone's late to an interview without calling, without somehow communicating, I'm out, period.
Michael Bernzweig (26:48.174)
Okay.
Bill Kasko (27:11.116)
Because if they do it during that time...
They're going to do it again. Just get out. The second part is about your company. If someone comes to that interview and you're interviewing them, one of the things that I ask within the first two minutes is, me about something on my website that's unusual, about a website that's unusual that you found unusual that you've just never seen in the industry.
And I appreciate people that are honest. Don't get me wrong. I really do. And honesty is definitely the best policy. But I can't tell you how many people will say, didn't go to your website, didn't check out your website. And I don't understand. How can you be showing up to an interview and you haven't done your research on what we do? Now, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, we still heard we don't have a website. I get it. Not today.
Michael Bernzweig (28:01.218)
It's the easiest possible thing to do to prepare.
Bill Kasko (28:12.622)
That's every company. 99.9, I guess I don't want to say every, has a website. There's information. What makes you unique? Tell me something. I mean, period. And then my last one that I really still, there's a couple more, but really one that's in the beginning side of it is after you have an interview with someone, if they don't send you a thank you, I'm out. If they don't say thank you for your time.
Thank you for taking the time to pick me out, to invite me in. Thank you. Now I do the same thing. I'll send them a thank you as well and appreciate them coming to visit with us. But if they don't take the initiative in the beginning, that tells me they must not be that interested. It also tells me about how they're going to interact. Now it's difficult because in this time, we have two kids that are grown now, but you know.
They've gone through this whole time of the way they date and communicate. It's like, I broke up with my girlfriend. well, what did she say? Well, I don't know. She just sent me a text. I don't understand that, right?
Michael Bernzweig (29:18.478)
Yeah, the soft skills in this current generation are very different and some good reasons, some not great reasons, you know.
Bill Kasko (29:24.238)
Yeah.
But you have to communicate. And that's the thing where today with AI, it's simple to be able to do. And it's also something that even with AI, basic human communication is a core value of us as humans. And it's not going to go away because the moment we are no longer communicating, it's kind of game over for us. Because I can remember going back to when my dad brought home the first microwave.
and told us, well, in 10 years, there won't be chefs and cooks anymore. And that didn't happen. And it's the same thing with AI. Yes, it's going to advance stuff and the technology is going to help us, but that's what it's going to do. We're still going to have to do that. And we're still going to have to communicate. So I look for those people that are going to communicate and the ones that don't. I just know for me, it's a telltale sign that it's not going to work. And I also know for our client,
That's how they're going to be. That's how they're going to show up. That's what they're going to be like to an interview. That's what they're not going to do when it comes to communicating and saying thank you back.
Michael Bernzweig (30:34.008)
Now, as far as organizations handling the whole process internally versus outsourcing and using a recruiting agency, what are the pros and cons?
Bill Kasko (30:51.522)
Yeah, there's a lot. the cons probably are the better ones to start off with. they look, companies, from our perspective, the con is that a company doesn't look at us as a partner, is what we normally find. But what we find is that they normally don't really look at their HR department as a partner either. And so when you go through...
a time of a struggle, they just haven't had the right partners in place because they've been hiring bodies. And that's what we find. They don't see a value. So the con is that the company hasn't been educated enough to understand the value that we're bringing to the table. And that value from a pro standpoint is that this is what we do all day long. We're not doing benefits. We're not doing insurance. We're not doing the onboarding of this.
We're speaking with people and interviewing and going into depth about why they're valuable, what they bring to the table, how they can make a difference to a company specific for each individual company and our clients that we work for. And I'll tell you, Michael, we don't necessarily work with every single client or employer. We have to have that. We have to have that communication. So if we're not having the communication from the employer back either,
that's assigned to us, it's probably not a good place. They probably don't put a value on that and it's not really worth it. know, the, the, the pro is that we're able to, to not only cast a much larger net through our networks, through our database system, through our technologies that have been built around this, but it's that passive candidate that we really have worked for over the last 21 years. Our internal database has over 2 million records of candidates. So
Michael Bernzweig (32:20.696)
Yeah, I mean, you're obviously afraid.
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (32:48.204)
We continuously are adding to that, but we're continuously communicating. We've been way ahead on the AI piece for a long time before it was really called even AI to make sure that we're communicating, that we have updated information, that we can quickly and readily access candidates in the focus areas that we work in. So our client comes to us when they have that need, it's a niche need maybe, or they really need somebody to focus in because...
It's almost impossible to find every opportunity that's out there. Everybody's not on LinkedIn. And I think that's something that people need to remember that, you know, the day of the job board, it's the exact same piece. When Hot Jobs was around, they thought, look what's going on. Well, then Hot Jobs went away, went into Monster. Facebook came out and they said, Facebook, that's going to be it. You guys, they're never going to need, we're not going to need recruiters anymore.
They're going to be gone. That whole industry is going to be now it's it's not.
Michael Bernzweig (33:48.718)
Yeah, and these are very generic communities. One of the things that I'm hearing and I hear a lot of overlap and parallels between software Oasis and Frontline in that it sounds, know, our community is a community of very specialized niche consulting firms that are subject matter experts at whatever it is that they do. And our community is a very highly vetted community. Not every consulting firm in the world is
on the community or in the community. And I hear the same thing from you. know, not every employer is in the ecosystem of frontline and for good reason. It's a two way street. It needs to be someone on the other end that's equally invested in what you're doing. The other question, when individuals are coming aboard, what is your feeling with
shadowing and job shadowing and a lot of that to really understand if there's a fit within an organization having other employees interview individuals that are in that final pool of potential candidates to really cut down on the number of bad hires because it's expensive to have a hire that's not a fit.
Bill Kasko (35:08.238)
Yeah, no, it is. And it's only going up. It's not going down. I mean, there's two different parts. You know, when we had a pool of people that were in the, out there looking for work, you were able to bring them in on a contract to hire. It used to be temporary to hire, attempt to hire kind of thing. We used to call it the try it before you buy it. And people were so open to that because, you know, hey, it's work and I can get to work. got an opportunity. When the pool...
that unemployed individuals, skilled unemployed, higher level individuals in particular, started changing. We also went to the gig economy, a different way of looking at things. You ended up with a smaller pool of people. So it was more the direct hire, the executive search. We're going to move somebody into it. So we believe that that interview process for those two models is completely different. If you're going to bring in, which today,
Michael Bernzweig (35:53.986)
Right.
Bill Kasko (36:05.026)
The real model today is the direct hire piece of the business and the executive search. the direct hire, they're hiring directly as their employer, employee rather. And the reason is that if you bring them in, if they're not working, number one, if they're working, they're not going to leave a position to take a contract to possible hire. mean, they're not going to do that. And we're not going to try to convince anybody to do that. But if you bring them in like that in this market today,
Michael Bernzweig (36:23.107)
Right.
Bill Kasko (36:33.036)
The entire time they're working on that contract to possible hire, they're getting LinkedIn messages, phone calls, texts, emails, mean, nonstop from people asking, hey, I got a direct hire. I got a permanent position. I have this opportunity. They're going to keep looking. They're not loyal to you yet.
Michael Bernzweig (36:43.063)
Yeah.
Michael Bernzweig (36:51.244)
Yeah, it might be better for a lower level position.
Bill Kasko (36:54.638)
And even that, you that's an interesting comment too, because I ask all the time, what does even a lower level mean anymore? Because it's not just one area. You know, we used to call it the $10 an hour receptionist. She's 24 bucks an hour today, or him. I mean, there's no low, what does low level really mean? And so that's even difficult. But when they bring them in and do the interview process, it has to be different between the two models.
Michael Bernzweig (37:03.066)
.
Bill Kasko (37:23.502)
And I'm 100 % on when they're bringing them in as an employee, as many people as possible, get them in a panel, get them on one-on-ones, get them to see the environment, allow them to work and interact with some of the people, even if it's 30 minutes of time, invite them to come back, invite them to come have lunch. In fact, I think this week we have three different clients having lunch with candidates on the last interview. This is it. I mean, they've already interviewed like four times.
Michael Bernzweig (37:48.792)
Yeah, that way when they show up on the first day, they're in with both feet, they're fully vested. And I think at the end of the day, you got to wake up every day and love what you're doing, whether it's your own business, whether you're working as an employee in a long term career, whatever it is that you're doing needs to be that kind of a fit. hopefully something that most people at one point in their life find and that's
Bill Kasko (37:53.954)
That's right.
Michael Bernzweig (38:18.394)
That's the magic of all of it. So, well, I really appreciate the deep dive here. One last question I want to ask you, because I saw it come in from a few people in the community and they'll beat me up if I don't ask you. So, one question I wanted to ask, as far as skills-based testing, other kinds of testing, what are your feelings about that along the whole?
Bill Kasko (38:24.748)
Absolutely.
Michael Bernzweig (38:46.54)
of hiring.
Bill Kasko (38:51.244)
You know?
Bill Kasko (38:54.926)
I don't have a hot sports opinion on this because it's difficult to understand the testing that's out there today. And it's no different than saying, go take the SAT test and what your score is, but it's narrowed down into certain parts, right? And so a lot of the skill testing, depending on what it is and depending on how it's given,
I think it can add value. But I also think that if people will have a conversation with that employee's former employer. So that's another big thing that comes up. Like, do I do reference checks? Like, we actually do reference checks. Now, most 90 plus percent don't, I'm going to tell you this. And anybody that thinks they do, they don't.
But to get to that point to be able to do a reference check and have a conversation, we have to utilize technology to actually introduce and embrace that person to even come back and have that conversation with us. Then it's deep diving into that skill set. But do they want you to speak with their current employer? Absolutely not, which makes it difficult. So you've got to go back an employer before. So there are times when the skill testing is very valuable.
Michael Bernzweig (40:20.986)
you
Bill Kasko (40:22.958)
But it depends. Like, is there even a test for that skill if it's technology? Again, the way the technology is changing, I saw something the other day about an AI testing platform school thing or something. And it showed like 12 months ago, the courses were six courses. And then it showed like three months later, it went up to 12. The bottom line today, it's like 48 courses over the next 12 months. And I'm like, okay, that shows you.
Michael Bernzweig (40:38.458)
Sure.
Bill Kasko (40:52.14)
You can't get ahead of it. So what are you trying to do? If you're trying to get some basics from an accounting person and they're not a CPA, I understand. They've got their CPA designation and they had it in the last 20 years and where they've been working and what they've been doing is pretty decent, you're probably going to be okay after you go through your review process. And you should probably ask them some questions and have that board or group sit there and visit with them and hit them.
They may not know every answer, but you'll be able to tell whether they're giving you a line of utter BS or they at least fundamentally understand what you're asking.
Michael Bernzweig (41:29.592)
Yeah, got it, got it. And then I'll leave it on this note. Is there anything from where you sit that really excites you about where technology is moving within the industry over the next several years that you're excited to say?
Bill Kasko (41:44.642)
Well, I think that AI piece of it, we felt like we got a little bit behind. We couldn't keep up. So we changed and started down this path about 12, 18 months ago with automation of our systems, automation of the way that we reach out, the communication, the number of emails, text messaging. I mean, it's it's stupid numbers and the hundreds of thousands of emails and texts that every month that go out.
Michael Bernzweig (41:51.844)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (42:11.34)
And then I'll write back into the database. We were one of the first companies to test a voice interactive AI actual recruiter who made the phone call and did an interview. And that was about 12 months ago, 18 months ago also. Then it was horrible. It was a disaster. And it was really because it was just ahead of its time. It will get better. We've been testing even the AI callers. I had a call the other day.
Michael Bernzweig (42:34.404)
Right.
Bill Kasko (42:39.498)
a sales call that came to me and I even asked, is this AI? You couldn't tell. And so I think the way that things are changing with the AI agents and the ability for us to actually cover more ground and it's to gather a lot of the micro pieces of individuals and to gather all of that data to bring it together, that large language model and what it's doing to bring it together in one place instead of us having to go.
Michael Bernzweig (42:44.292)
Yeah.
Bill Kasko (43:07.416)
to LinkedIn, to here, to our database, to this, Zoom info, Apollo. mean, all of these systems bringing them all in together so we have one location to really interact. Because once we have them in one location, that interaction goes back to what I said in the beginning about communication. We have to have that conversation to determine, is this the right fit for what our client is looking for at the end of the day to bring someone and to bring the talent that they're looking for?
But there's so many different data points. You know, it used to be five or eight maybe. Now we're talking like 50 to 80 that we can bring in together to really narrow it down so that we have that good fit.
Michael Bernzweig (43:48.204)
Yeah, I'd agree with you. It's both exciting and scary all at the same time. It's moving at a pretty, pretty quick clip. So, well, with that, we'll leave a link in the show notes for anybody that would like to reach out to you or anybody on the frontline source group team. And I really appreciate your time on the career spotlight today.
Bill Kasko (43:53.324)
Yeah, it's scary for sure.
Bill Kasko (44:14.094)
Now, I appreciate it very much, Michael. And yeah, the website, it's just frontlinesourcegroup.com. And feel free to go onto LinkedIn and follow us or connect with me and let me know you saw me on the show here and pass that along to Michael. We'd appreciate it. And we're not Riverside. That's just a good blank picture up there. So I don't know. Hopefully, Riverside is a great company. So anyway, really appreciate you having me on.
Michael Bernzweig (44:34.33)
I love it. I love it. Anyways, thank you so much for taking the time. And today on the career spotlight, we've had Bill Kasko. He's the president and CEO of Frontline Source Group. And for anybody that's listening to us on a podcast player, Apple or Spotify or any other podcast player, definitely hit that like.
and subscribe button. We also have two other podcasts, the consulting spotlight, this one, the career spotlight and the original podcast software spotlight. So thanks for joining us today.